In the tenth episode of This Podcast Needs a Title, Peter and Erica chat, rant, and rave about Mad Men, anxiety, industry gatekeepers, film school, ADHD, Impostor Syndrome, code-switching, and Dwight Schrute. Come for the shop talk, stay for a rousing game of This-or-That in which the co-hosts accidentally invite Rainn Wilson to be on the show.
Hey everyone, welcome to this podcast needs a title. I'm Erica Davis. And I am Peter Malone Elliot. And this is real talk about writing, publishing and everything in between. today. There's no guest, Eric, it's just us just as funny. A little scared. You should be we. Now this is Episode 10. This was very exciting. I know we've done 10 of these. That's, you know, pretty nuts. How are you doing? I'm good. Here in Florida. It's actually cool. The heat broke the humidity. And we just had all the windows and doors open yesterday. It was so great. Nice. Yeah, it's beautiful here too. Yeah, it's like it's 65 and nice and cool. I haven't turned on my air conditioner and like, you know, a day and a half. Nice. Yeah. How about you? How are you doing? I'm good. I'm good. It's been a little bit of a weird week. I got back I had a very lovely week before I was still working. But last week was my mother's birthday week. So we spent it at my great aunt's house in Rehoboth Beach Delaware, which was lovely you'd like walk out the front door and go 20 steps you're on the beach it's terrific. It's like this it's it's become it's the area's a very like developed McMansion II area but like my great aunt's house is like she's owned it since the 50s and she hasn't like changed at all so it's like it's still dinky little like you know 50s Victorian style cottage a mix all these like huge mcmansions anyway so that was fun but we came back and my my ceiling caved in apparently was gone yeah me I know full on my ceiling caved and I opened the doors like Oh there is it looks like a person Cannonball through my ceiling there was debris everywhere there was beams from you know the stuff in between you know the levels of like you know, beneath the floorboards upstairs like on my sink. There was you know, it was it was full on Yeah, but it's fixed now. That was a little bit startling for sure. Sure. Otherwise everything is good I we're in the midst of the heat of unpublished judging and we're narrowing things down which is always exciting very starting to read the really really good stuff now which is, which is which tickles my fancy. Okay, that's not that's not a sexual thing tickles my fancy. It has to be sexual just sounds weird. When you say tickle. It's twice in two days. Stop it. That's three. Tickle, tickle. Okay, bye everyone. I'm murdering Peter now and I also I finished chapter Well, this is kind of jumping the gun but it's a kind of a perfect segue into my accountability goals, accountability goals. So my accountability goal last week or last episode, rather, was to finish chapter 16. I actually straight past that I finished chapter 16. And today I just finished chapter 17. Yes, I'm give myself a little pat on the back. How did your accountability goal go? It was good. I got net the proposal revision five days early. Oh, yeah. And in the leftover time of the game to time, if you will, I realized while starting the research for the book, something was missing. I was lining up interviews with my fellow pH students to have these conversations. Just get met told me I should trademark it. It's like it's only a 15 month process. No, Zuckerberg Shut up. He was no she me. I ended up so you can't derail someone add buddy. How's he saying? You're saying about interviews for a fellow pH? Didn't say yes. And I'm like, I like the interviews. And I'm glad I'm grateful that I have the equipment I can use, like for good audio quality. And I think my subconscious was like, Yes. And what else can you do with recordings? So it was sort of this aha moment that I had while I was chatting with Matt at the end of our check in after I handed her the revisions. I'm just like, wait, now what if I did a peach podcast? She's like, yep. So that's kind of exciting. And that that's that also surpassed that accountability goal for me. So I'm excited about that. That's good. Thank you. And how about Kira? Yeah, so I checked in with Kira her accountability goal from last time was deciding between she had two story ideas that she was considering pursuing and she wanted to definitively decide which one was you know the one she was going to continue on. I reached out to her and she said quote, you'll be happy to know that I chose to pursue the why a thriller and I'm actually itching to start writing it which is a good sign I guess I even started to Scrivener file for it and created some character profiles next step will be to actually start the outline. Who knows how long the story will stay in my head for I need to get it down on paper now. So all three of us exceeded our accountability goals. I think we all should take ourselves on the neck. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Now you can't cut it. Now you're right. I can't cut it because that's like a perfect trifecta for the job. God darn it, Peter. Gosh, darn it. I'm gonna try not to swear on this. No fucking swear just once. I want to not check the explicit box. Fuck. Dammit, Peter. Erica, I guess I'm done talking about that. You Shut up. We're moving on. I do have something to tell you though. Okay, please. I have watched the first three episodes of Mad Men. Okay, I have Okay, so prefacing this for our audience. Don't Don't they need it if you don't know Erica has been taunting me on Twitter, because she's never seen Mad Men and Mad Men is my favorite show. And she was live tweeting me last night about various things she thought while she was watching the episodes and many of them were incorrect, but that's fine, but that's besides the point. So Erica, yes. What do you think? Many of the things I I had opinions on were incorrect. My hearing you right co host that right? All right. No, no, I meant more like you said about the like, Don hired a PI which is that that was just then that that's how the episode kind of ended. Like it just looked like okay, let me back up. Okay. wardrobe is incredible. Yes, the hairstyles are incredible. The sound design is incredible. cinematography is incredible. Yep, they lost me in the pilot with the misogyny because a part of me has experienced that same stuff firsthand. It's not enjoyable to watch that. I couldn't turn the episodes off. The character development is phenomenal. It's it's just it's addicting. Like, I want to know what what's the neurological thing with our hands like what? Is he going to ever get punched in the face? Any of them? I know the Peggy character has a lot of potential. She has a huge arc in the show. I've heard that and I've heard spoilers for the final episode too. And I might skip and watch the last episode or last three episodes or something. Yeah, yeah, fine. That's fair enough. The thing that I would say is I don't think it's trying to glorify the sexism of the time I think of anything is trying to show put a light to show how awful it was by Jai by coating it in this ultra realistic This is how it was historical context which you know I it's it's uncomfortable but it's supposed to be that's kind of the point I don't disagree with that either. Yeah, but that what you just said is why I don't want to watch it because that's very much still how it is in some places Yeah, unfortunately. If I wonder if more people watched it in they saw that they would realize how awful their behavior is I wonder if they have enough self awareness that's that's another episode man I'm not ready for that but thank you for hearing hearing me out and it's it's visually stunning it really is the complaint that I do hear about it from some people and this is valid i mean it's it's very much it is a slow burn character trauma if you're looking for like fast paced plot and like you know, super shifts in action that madman's not show for you. That's fine then actually that tells me maybe I will keep giving it a few more chances like I haven't written it off yet. I'm curious about the next few few things to the other tweet that we gave each other yesterday was about helping catch fire. That's my madman. Okay, yeah. slow burn is a period piece which I didn't think I'd enjoy but the tech behind it the acting the character the set design is repaid. I tried it like six months ago, like relatively recently, because it got recommended me to a bunch of people's like, Oh, you like you know, you're like mad men, you're like period dramas, you should try out and catch fire, like, Okay, I got halfway through the pilot, and I stopped. Oh, okay, the historical detail. And you know, the way it looks is great. And everything I just, I had trouble caring about the people in it. That's a good reason to stop the show. Now. I I'm current, I think it was it was shantelle. That said, like, if they you know, don't care about something, they're just gonna stop. They're not going to, you know, give it another episode. They're just gonna, you know, cut it off. And I'm, I'm kind of like that, too. I think everybody is if the pilot doesn't draw me in, I keep watching. Obviously, some people, some people are different. Some people will, you know, you have to give it like five episodes. Like, why watch? The pilot didn't do it. Because I'm talking about what's on our mind today, Peter, we've kind of arranged a few topics here on our docket. Yeah. What do you want to what do we tackle first? Well, I mean, you know, I think we should really get into the weeds on Mad Men just really, really run into check and check. But the thing that's kind of on my brain right now is dealing with anxiety throughout the entire creative process. It's specifically with me in terms of waiting to hear back from people you know, being out in submission and waiting for agents to respond. I have a I have a project out now a script out now that's an adaptation of one of my mom's books that's out on submission to a lot of very big people that one of the bigger agencies in town and it's, it's, it's exciting, but it's also like I I've been on this Ferris wheel before and I know how long it takes and it might not end up going anywhere. So it's it's a weird kind of yo yo That you have to play as a writer in terms of like being cautiously optimistic but not getting too excited and then having your hopes and dreams crushed when it inevitably maybe doesn't work out you know yeah and it's it's an interesting mental health challenge so I'm wondering how you deal with that I haven't been on submission with anything yet. Asked me again when I'm on submission with the pH didn't book because that would be a very different thing. I remember when I first queried the pH student proposal Five, four or five years ago I was excited I was eager to hear back I was impatient to hear back and at that time I was brand new to generalized anxiety disorder because my father had just died like less than a year earlier which you know lit the fire to start showing my work to agents. I'm fortunate in my wiring that I was not an anxious child. I don't know that I'm going to be much help in this conversation because I'm so used to failure in I mean, that don't don't like it's not a bad thing. I just I never put a lot of stock in grades. My parents Sure did. So that was a disappointment for them. I would join the track team just to have something to do and by track I mean shotput and discus and triple jump, go for those three events. I had perfect form, no distance, and I didn't mind that I was the last one because in my head I'm like, well, somebody's got to be last at least not anyone else because they'll probably feel sad. I just I never felt sad coming in last I never felt sad getting picked last for gym. And these things I think probably because they happen to so much healthier long term though. You know, I think it is. And the other thing is I remember having a conversation with you that you can't you have to listen to something or you can't have silence when you're working. I have to have silence when I'm working because there's nothing but noise in my head. Nothing but ideas nothing but storylines fully fledged characters girt my main character from the way I'm writing and the screen adaptation that's coming she came fully fledged to me she just like showed up and I'm fine okay, what's your story? And I that's been how I am as long as I can remember so what that translates to for waiting if I'm on submission or waiting if I've queried is even if x doesn't work out why is smacking me in the back of the head right now. And z is not far behind her. There's I have nothing but story ideas. And I'm not saying like oh, I have all these I don't know if they're good, right? My brain doesn't shut up with situations emotional turmoil, it just any permutation like I remember looking at a d&d character rolling chart page one time where it's like, okay, roll to see what their initiative is, like roll to see what their weaknesses are, and their strengths and their whatever and their power. That's what my brain is doing constantly with everything it sees in the world. Like every object it sees, it's like, oh, how could that be used in a story? How could this do this? How could that do that? And it does great, though, that I mean, I'm sure that's like annoying, but really annoying, it gets really distracting. I don't have that anxiety about what if it doesn't happen, because there's a 50% chance or more that it's not going to happen. And I've already moved on to the beta project, the net The next thing in the capital project after that, and the Delta project like they're just, it's just a huge line around the corner. For me of I can work on what I do get anxious about in my creative process, though, is the good old imposter syndrome. Like that's just even going to be good enough. And I it has taken a lot but I've gotten a lot better at saying to that voice. I don't know one way to find out. That's very hard to do and I will go through the motions of saying that to myself, but it doesn't always stop it and that's when I know I've hit the point in literally in the time of day where I'm my brain is like shifting over to the analytical side and it's time for me to go to revising or editing instead of just rewinding back a little bit it seems like for lack of a better phrase you have a little bit of a hands off approach in terms of like once you're done with something you know you're done yeah and that's that's great that I'm I'm working on getting there I'm not quite there yet I I grew up kind of the antithesis of you I was a highly competitive athlete my entire life cut and dry you either win or you lose you know there's a meritocracy you work hard you practice you get to a certain level, right? Yeah. And I the thing I'm learning more and more, you know, publishing and film and television, especially both Yeah, it is not a meritocracy. No, it is not this is not and that's difficult for me just kind of rewiring my brain is like okay, this, just because, you know, I've been working on this Minecraft for such a long time. I've done all the things I'm supposed to do. doesn't necessarily mean the industry is just gonna, okay, we're gonna buy your script, we're gonna buy your book, right? You know, it doesn't happen that way. Another thing that really frustrates me about the industries, both industries, but especially the film and television industry is the amount of gatekeeper them, you have to go through to get things made or bought or get, you know, like, in the case of a script, you know, for the most part, unless you're writing like, you know, a franchise IP based movie, how your movie is going to get financed, is by getting actors and directors attached. Right? That's how, if you want to make a movie that's like, between 5,000,020 $5 million, how those movies are made. For the most part, again, there's always exceptions, but for the most part, they're made through talent attachments, and foreign sales. Yeah, and how those things are done you to get to an actor or director, you have to go through a phalanx of agents or managers. And it's just it's there's just a million rows and rows and rows of people you have to get through, that don't, don't actually create anything creative. They don't add to the creative process. They're just literally roadblocks. And there's, it's just, it's very frustrating. That's another thing I kind of have to keep kind of taking a step back from and be like, Okay, this is out of my control. I can't, I've literally done everything I can do at this point, I just have to move on to the next thing and not think about this as best as I can, which is not easy. Publishing has demonstrably fewer gatekeepers, is there a chance that your publishing brain is trickling into the film brain being like, why can't it be like publishing work? Have you heard of people having that instant success in that instance, but that only three hurdles to jump over instead of 3300? Well, I mean, it's, it's kind of interesting, because I mean, I, you know, I grew up with my mom, my mom is who my mom is, so I kind of grew up in the publishing industry, but I did, and I was in the film and TV industry first. And then, you know, the last couple of years, I've kind of segwayed back into the publishing industry. So I came at it from a very different lens. So now it's like, wow, I mean, there's so few gatekeepers, you have to go through to get, you know, your book bought, as opposed to film and TV. This is great. Whoo. Yeah. But again, I mean, it's on a relative scale. I mean, there's still a lot, you know, you have to get through to get a publishing deal, obviously. But in terms of my jadedness of the film and TV industry, yeah, I think my I think my publishing brain is infiltrating a little bit. Yeah, exactly. Would you like any advice for filtering that, please? Yeah. code switching, code switching when I'm at home, Sunday family dinner, my big Sicilian family is sitting there yelling at each other. I act one way, when I'm in doctoral classes, I act a different way. I've had friends tell me about personal real life friends who've listened to this podcast Tell me Erica, that sounds nothing like you. You sound so professional. Like, well, that's my job. Yeah, and I'm not the same person on this podcast needs a title as I am talking to you about Downton Abbey. Right? The verb set at best, a million different people from one day to the next you have to switch to handle different situations. It's almost like putting on a different hat. You know, hats. I am familiar. Yeah. Putting on a different hat. When you are in screenwriting mode, film mode, having different expectations. Exactly the expectations is the code completely picking up what you're putting down. I am working on doing that. I feel like I've gotten a lot better in the last year that I was saying like 2020 or 2019. But it I mean, it's it's easier said than done, right? It's a process. It is about one's creative life, I would imagine. So that kind of segues perfectly into I think another topic you wanted to talk about the new rigor and your schedule since you signed with the wonderful Nat Kimber, it's something leveled up in my brain. I'm not an organized person, I Excuse me, I was never a very organized person. I've messy handwriting, I've bad hand eye coordination, which I've heard from people that indicates a very creative brain, which indicates a very messy physical space. And organized chaos is a good way to say it, I suppose. But it's not very descriptive. However, since since signing, I have started writing out my daily schedule every morning, and I have three columns at home work in progress pipeline. Yeah, so that's on the x axis on the y axis is like, eight 910 1112 1234, up to 11pm. It's just this really basic structure. And it changes throughout the day, and I add notes where I got distracted. So I'm starting to see those patterns too. But if I just if, if I don't, I'm responsible for a book now. So if I don't carve out that time to get the work in progress going moving forward, it won't happen. If I'm just watching, you know, eight episodes of Downton Abbey every morning just to unwind before I start my date pipeline at one o'clock. That's not very productive, and that's what it used to be like a couple of years ago. How about you, how's your day structure? This year, I've been very focused on, you know, finishing my book, and, you know, getting an agent and all that stuff. For so long, I was putting my nose to the grindstone of, you know, reading the trades every day, you know, shooting out like four or five scripts a year, I was very like, it was all I was doing. And I was just I got very burned out, you know, 2020 wasn't a great year for me on a lot of different ways. Right? So I just, I just, I needed to switch gears and do something else for a little bit. I am starting to think about I'm three chapters away from finishing my book, but I'm still I'm starting to think about what the next thing will be in. It will be a script, in all likelihood, Oh, great. How did you find your manager for your film and television stuff I've always wanted to do it. It was it's an incredibly LA, hollywood type situation. I have a friend that works at Netflix. And he knew this manager, I had just left my old manager, and I was looking for a new one. And I was at drinks with this friend, Cameron, if you're listening Hello. And he was talking telling me about you. I just left my manager. Oh, well, I know a manager. Oh, you do? Yeah, I'll send him your stuff. Like, okay, you know, you hear that all the time? Yeah. So I'll pass along, okay. You actually did, and Zack book, my manager, he got he read my Sinatra script in a day. And he called me like, I want this. Wow. So it was it was very fast. But yeah, it wasn't through me, like, you know, cold querying and reminding them that, you know, some of that it was literally just a connection through a friend, you know. And then my lawyer was me, it was easy, because my manager works with this lawyer on other with other clients. So what is the lawyer has to do with that? contracts. So in film, and film and TV managers aren't legally allowed to, you know, they can, like negotiate the overall terms. But in terms of like, actually, you know, like, getting into the nitty gritty of the legal stuff, they're there, they're not allowed to do that. And most of them don't have a legal background. So yeah, it's talking about circling back to the gatekeepers thing. It is interesting in, in publishing, you have one agent, right? You have one person who does everything. Yeah, right. And they get 15%. And that's great. That's it and film and film and TV. You if you're a working film and TV writer, usually you have three or four reps. You have Yeah, man. Yeah, yeah. So you have I mean, you know, this is again, I'm speaking in generalities here, this isn't the case for everybody, but like, this is a typical, you know, boilerplate thing. So if you so you have a manager right? Who who develops stuff with you and gives you notes and you know, they're kind of like the for lack of this is a terrible comparison but they're kind of like a life coach for you in terms of like helping you scope out what your next idea is doing notes connecting you with people etc. Yeah, then you have the agents so if you want to if you're writing a feature spec, you have a feature film motion picture and literary agent at one of the agencies and if you want to write TV you have a separate TV lead agent and then then you also need a lawyer so one lawyer for all of that or one lawyer per different one one lawyer period so like so the breakdown is so the lawyer gets 5% the manager gets 10% and whatever agent used for that project gets 10 so right out the gate as a screener you're losing 25% Now let me ask is this if you have good representatives, they deserve every penny of it. Yeah 100% and you know, they're earning it that's great than that. But you know i mean that's that's a lot of it's a lot of money to go out, you know that you're losing and then you know, you don't get taxed right so you're losing 25% and then you have to pay taxes. It always makes me laugh when people say well yeah, you screenwriters sell things for like you know six figures right? They're rich like Okay, hold on, take out 25% Yeah, then take out half like a third for taxes and then your that's what you're left with so really like if you sell something for 100,000 you're really coming away net after taxes and paying out your reps like 30 grand is still great, but that's not 100 there's much more of a keeper complex in the film and TV industry and we need to know about it I didn't know about that many different hands on the pot. Yeah, there's there's a lot of cooks in the kitchen. But if you're listening Zack I love you and this everything I'm saying doesn't apply to you that book ladies and gentlemen that book the man I went to film school right and you know I always get the question like well is it worth to go to film school and it's always I kind of like I maybe film school is great in the sense that you know, it's an incubator you're writing or you know, producing short films or directing, you're doing a lot of stuff and you get the shitty stuff out more quickly, right, which is great. Having said that, I think there's much more of a focus on the the artistic side of film and TV, which is But I think what a lot of things are missing, and I can speak to this, I had no idea what the realities of the business side of the industry was. And that is whether we like it or not 70% of the business and is very, very important. I was I knew nothing about foreign sales, I knew nothing about, you know, the realities of attaching talent to projects, I, you know, didn't know what a general meeting was, you know, and all this stuff I kind of was, you know, I came out of film school like, well, if I write a great script, then I'll go, you know, go to Sundance, and it'll be great. And I'll be you know, I so I wish film school had a little bit more of a holistic approach to the film TV industry. And maybe that's changed since. I don't know. A lot of people don't know this, because I focus on the pH didn't part the Ph. D. stuff. Yeah, my first graduate degree was a master's in film and screenwriting. I keep forgetting about it. Because that's not where I learned to be a screenwriter, I met some awesome people. And the final semester of the three Semester Program was an internship in Los Angeles. That's where I learned everything about it. I was a slush reader for a production company at the on the universal lot. So not only did I get to, like, you know, walk up to City Walk, and then actually take the Jurassic park ride to get down to work again. It was just it was so good. Yeah. And we dry off by the time we get back to the office, it was amazing. I learned more from setting up the meetings with the producers and the actors and everything. Like I had john Cleese's phone number sitting in front of me one time, and I'm like, Well, my call, like, no, this is my first day, maybe just chill. And I, but I wasn't prepared for that internship, because of exactly what you said, the coursework section, the preparing me for the internship moving across country for the internship part. Nobody mentioned the business end of it, nobody mentioned how seriously they take themselves and how many celebrities would be walking through the door. And that was baffling. And I feel I know, I'm privileged to be able to say this, it was not for me. And that's when I was there for eight months, working for free. And the only reason I could afford to do it was because on the drive over there, I was robbed, my car was broken into and everything I had, and it was taken. And because I was a graduate student, I was covered under my parents, homeowners insurance, and I lived off of that money, I wouldn't have been able to stay that long, I was only going to stay for a few months. And then I'm like, Well, I'm making connections, I'm getting other paying gigs as like a casting assistant, assistant all that after eight months, my sisters were pregnant, my one cousin had died. And I'm like, I just miss my family, it's time to go. And that's why I switched to fiction writing instead of screenwriting. Because I knew at that point, how many people had their hands on a project, even if the craft services guy could make a passing comment to a director and the director would be like, Oh, good call, Let's have him put the poodle in the portal and that that was like, Okay, I'm, I'm really glad I had that experience. It's not for me, I'd rather have only like three people have their hands on something. I know, it's more than that in publishing, but there are fewer gatekeepers, and I'm not even talking about getting to the publishing part. It was never a great writer. I hated writing. Growing up. I didn't enjoy reading until after this grad school program in screenwriting. When I was reading scripts all the time, I read I remember I had a copy of Brian headlands, a Knight's Tale, and I wore that thing like it's waterlogged. It's gone now. But it was the most fascinating thing to read. Like Brian's voice he comments. It wasn't the shooting script. It was his original. Was it like a novelization of the movie? No, no, it was the film script. That's how I learned to write screenplays. Great movie, great movie myself. 10 favorites ever. And okay, we agree on one. That's reading that script over and over reading science script over and over is how I learned to write screenwriting classes were good for hearing feedback from Yeah. And there was only we were a pilot program for the film school I was in. It was there was like, maybe 12 of us. Oh, wow. I never knew all this about you, Erica, this is fascinating. Thank you. And that's I think that's why I was really good at being a slush reader in publishing. Because I had been doing it for eight months in Hollywood. It was I was reading book manuscripts because people were submitting them for adaptation considerations. Now that I've mastered publishing, but I feel a lot more confident now that I know more about the film industry through my work of pipeline. I don't mind that there's those gatekeepers, because I'm wired for failure. It's a double edged sword. I also get caught not caring enough to polish and so I'm, I'm starting to recognize that now. I'm responsible to net like, because I have, I have a future reading audience. That is this isn't a funny book I'm writing there's going to be humor Sure. And I think that's where my anxiety does creep through. What am I going to forget to put in the book? What am I going to spend too much time talking about? What's missing? I'm actually more afraid of forgetting something the underrepresented populations, accommodations for neurodivergent learners but then my mind the loud noise in my head reminds me I can find sensitivity readers I can pay sensitivity readers to take a look at the sample pages to see what's missing to see where I've overstepped and then I can do my best to correct from there and I can always put it forward then and they're saying hey, all these mistakes are mine. Come at me bro. Like in a good way. You should say that come at me bro. That should be the last sentence of the prologue come at me bro. Yeah, and then your author photo should be you wearing like a backwards snap back and you're like Whoo, Oh, dude, my author photo is going to be that typewriter recording. I spent six hours setting that shot up to six 9000 uncomfortable holding a 30 pound typewriter on my lap. I realized like the photo that's my you know, Twitter. That was just my my mom took that on my phone for me. I realized because you know, my movie is coming out in November and so in North America so like I need like actual photo of me for press right? And so I'm in the next week or two, I'm going to be doing like a shoot here with a photographer friend of mine. I was thinking about your photos. like should I do something funny, or should I? I don't know. I'm a humor writer. So that was on that's on brand for me. Right? And I'm also a huge fan of Tina Fey. And that's that's what that photo is. And people don't even need to know that. That that's a recreation of her photo. Yeah, but it's a nice little bonus if you do not the 2004 photoshoot with bust magazine. Yeah, we tell you all about it. I've seen I've seen some of my writing friends out there photos that are just really professional looking. And I've had this conversation with people so I'm not trying to throw anyone under the bus. They know that their smile looks fake in it like this. Like it doesn't look like maybe there's like a summer might my Twitter friends summer her author photo is her. It's her wearing a T shirt that says my ideal weight is Benedict Cumberbatch on top of me. It's a huge t shirt and with huge letters. But But the reason why that's perfect. She is a snarky, hilarious, brilliant writer, and her book crushing the a list is about a Benedict Cumberbatch type celebrity coming into this woman's life, and it's on brand for her. I'd like to see you in a tuxedo with the fedora, the antique Fedora. I know you got folding your bourbon. Okay, just lean into it full on. What do you think you're going to where are you going to stand in front of a bookcase? fireplace? Hold on. Oh, she's just she's just I should just hold panda. Yeah, you know what it should be? It's not even a picture of a just a picture of panda just like putting your hand on her head does my head Yeah. I have some ideas. Yeah, but I mean, like, I don't want it to be inside. I want it to be outside. And so it'll probably be either like in Prospect Park or maybe in the Brooklyn Bridge Park like the Brooklyn Bridge in the background, maybe. Just really lean into it and like, put your leg up on a rock and lean forward with your hand and your chin the Brooklyn Bridge Park is not like there's no like rocks. It's like just like a little paper in front of it. Like we were like, hey, Happy Happy Birthday by the way. It's not my birthday. Sunday. Okay, mines February 18. Thanks for asking. But now we're gonna play a little game called this or that and we're gonna take turns saying one thing or the other. And I'm gonna do like carebears or transformers and then you pick one and then you asked me Okay, okay. Allow Okay, I wasn't prepared for this. Okay? Yeah, I'm not either. It looks like here we go. Here we go. Peter. Here we go. This is that transformers are Ninja Turtles. I don't care about either Don Draper or Roger Sterling. Who's Roger Sterling. The white haired guy from Mad Men. Oh, I'm just trying appetizers or desserts. appetizers. I get really bad canker sores whenever I eat sweets, which is not cold sores, or cold sores. My mom was telling me he told me that canker sores because he hasn't pooped in a while. Mrs. Elliott, is that true? No. Safari or rain forest? Rain Forest. Panda, or one of your dogs? My dogs? ampion. Or hamster? Cat? Yeah, Academy. It's good. Yeah, movies or TV? Oh, man. TV, movies or TV? TV. That was easier for you than it was for me. Yeah. Oh, yeah. I have no qualms about that. Don Draper or Frank Sinatra? No. Jesus Christ. How does it feel Peter? Alright. All right. I will say Frank Sinatra just because he's a real person Don Draper's not real. You can have dinner with Frank Sinatra or Jon Hamm. What would you have dinner with? Frank Sinatra, Tina Fey or Amy Poehler, Tina Fey, the office or Parks and Rec the office. Michael Scott or Dwight schrute white Sri Yes, that is the correct answer. Oh, yes, it is a Michael's great and everything. But like I whenever people ask me who's your favorite character? I always say Dwight, because it's just he's far and away the most interesting character in my opinion. I want to put this on the record that knows this already. If I could write any IP, I would like to write Dwight schrute origin. Yes, absolutely. And Rainn Wilson. I know you're listening. I am happy to I'm taking meetings now. So rain to have have your people reach out to Eric as people and we'll get something on the books it'll be great. He also wrote a book called thinking and best the best soon key art etc. and other sort of Tales from the bandroom Yeah, extra bonus chapter. I do wonder with someone like that, I mean, not specifically just Rainn Wilson, but someone like that who is so known for playing one specific character. I wonder if that that must be such an interesting psychological thing to break out of. It's actually covered in this book is do not quote me on this. He does. He touches on that what I got from it is that he didn't feel the need to get out of it. Because when he was in theater class, I think it was a the instructor pulled him aside or in his whatever, like the review at the end of the something. said, You're you are going to make it if you stick to the periphery characters like the outliers, the weirdos plate, and like because that's where he shined Yeah, me type wise for sure. That made that book that emotional through line, I connected with the book at that point, and just someone in a professional position told him you stick to the peripheral characters. That's you're going to break out. Like, that's really good advice, but I'm sure that wasn't easy to hear for him at the time. I would imagine no rain. What do you think? Rain? Let's have you on let's talk about oh my god, Rainn Wilson. Would you like to be on our podcast? Yes. about books. It's about books, and my adoration for Dwight schrute. Yep. Erica, buddy. I think that'll do it for this episode. I don't think there's anything else. I think Rainn Wilson. Yeah, I don't think he can get any higher than that. Really? Yeah, as saying this as on narcissistically as possible. I think it will be an interesting episode where people listen to I think that's not narcissistic. It's true. We're very interesting people. Fuck right. You're right. No, you're on never will. Yeah, really interesting. My parents thought I was cool. Your mom thinks I'm cool, dude. Yeah. Damn right. Bet you She probably thinks you're cool. Yeah. You have a good point. Or I do. Hey, speaking of cool, who's up in Episode 11. So up next in Episode 11. We've got the wonderful Zack Knoll, who's an editor at Abrams books, and he's going to be a great guest. So I'm really excited for that. Oh, man. So if you guys have any questions, rants or raves about writing or you want to learn more about us or Pipeline, please visit Pipeline artists.com. And as always, please consider following us on Twitter at the podcast title on Instagram and Facebook at this podcast needs a title. And you can follow me at the Davis girl or you can follow Peter at PME writer. That's true. We didn't drink. Oh yeah, I need water. Okay, well, that's a wrap. Thanks.